North Carolina aquatic center says yes to sharia law – makes public pool private for Muslim women

Sharia law is really neat to the good folks in North Carolina. It makes sense for businesses and service providers to submit to sharia law. Or else we will sue them. A UNC-Chapel Hill professor sees it simply as ‘Muslims learning to operate within American civic institutions’ and he’s right. Muslims are learning how to convert public, integrated institutions into private, segregated, sharia-compliant institutions right here in America. Contact the Curran Aquatic Center here and let them know how you feel about sharia law and segregation.

“According to the Shariah guidelines [Islamic law derived from authentic Islamic texts] Muslim women should not be without Hijab [hair covering and modest clothing] among men who are not related to them,” Salman Sheikh said, explaining the need for privacy.

“It’s created a lot of excitement,” said Doracy Harrison, program manager at the Curran Aquatic Center. “It’s been really neat.”

For the Sheikhs, the success of the class is a lesson in cultural adjustment. “It makes sense for business and service providers to accommodate the needs of the community,” Salman Sheikh said. “All it takes is dialogue to make it happen.”

Salman Sheikh was organizing a swim class for his two sons last summer when fellow Muslim parents approached him about starting a class for girls.

Sheikh told them he would ask the Curran Aquatic Center in Cary whether it could accommodate a group of Muslims who preferred a women-only pool.

Yes, of course, the leaders of the aquatic center said, and showed him a 15-yard pool that could be rented for $170 an hour.

Problem was, the small pool overlooked a larger, Olympic-size pool, and Sheikh wondered whether the center could provide blinds to cover the windows and shield the women from onlookers.

Sure, the center’s leaders said, but it would cost $3,000 for custom-made blinds. Sheikh was ready to drop the idea. But the Muslim community in Raleigh and Cary wouldn’t let him.

This type of accommodation to the religious requirements of their faith is something Muslims are seeing more. All-Muslim Boy Scout and Girl Scout troops have cropped up across the country. Muslims are entering politics, studying Islam at major American universities, even finding halal, or ritually slaughtered foods, at local stores.

“I see this as sign of Muslims learning to operate within American civic institutions,” said Omid Safi, a professor of Islamic studies at UNC-Chapel Hill. Read it all from Muslim women head to a Cary pool as another cultural barrier falls

From the ‘sheikh’s’ mouth – all it takes is dialogue, and America too can be ruled by Islamic sharia law!

63 Responses

  1. I just love to see how the Muslim community is assimilating into American society. If they want this privacy why don’t they build their own aquatic center

  2. I wrote this to the Aquatic Center (cc’d to the two staff on that page)

    Dear Mr Roberts,

    I was concerned to learn about your agreement with local Muslims to
    provide special accommodations for the needs of their women regarding
    swimming. By what thought process do you justify this decision? If a
    Christian group requested a cross or two be mounted at your facility
    to affirm their religious needs, what would be your response?

    You may be aware that the Koran commands, quite literally (not
    allegorically), that Muslims work tirelessly to dominate and
    eventually overtake or subsume the cultures they live in. This can be
    by coercion, as in your case, by conversion or by the sword. Or all
    three. These Islamic commandments are not the province of a few
    “fundamentalists” or “radicals” but are a mainstay of the religion
    itself, even if some Muslims do not consciously take up this cause.

    As a society and as individuals, we can see that our relationship with
    Muslims is headed inexorably toward the developing conditions in
    Europe. It is more than a local or random effort. The Saudis spend
    many millions to indoctrinate students and policy makers with
    extremist ideology in the U.S. each year. If you will take the time to
    see now what is happening in Holland, France, Sweden, even in UK,
    low-level conflict is increasing as Muslim populations rise and those
    of other groups wane.

    With increased political power the consistent pattern of “demographic
    jihad” is to increase, not decrease, pressure and establish as much
    hegemony as possible. Your “neat” swimming pool decision is but one
    small step in this process.

    I hope you will take some time to learn a little more about Islam. As
    you may know, it is much more than a religion and in fact is a
    holistic plan for life. Muslims do not and conceptually cannot
    recognize any distinction between church and state. For our sake, for
    our Constitution and the people she protects, including Muslims, we
    must be vigilant in keeping the civic and public sphere separate from
    the undue influence of any religious interests.

  3. Curran Acquatic Center

    Thanks for giving up a piece of our culture. I will not send my kinds to UNC.

    So when are you going to build a mosque at UNC expense??

    Ken

  4. It appears that this center is privately owned. So as long as the Muslims are renting the space, as any other group might, I don’t see any problem. Now if they were being given special consideration beyond what other groups would have gotten and/or the center was publicly funded, that would be another issue.

  5. John F.,

    What you say sounds reasonable, but the point is that in these cases Muslims *are* being given special consideration because their needs are both religious and political, not simply civic or secular. In light of the hegemonic demands of their religion and historical legacy of different forms of jihad, it is imperative that we who are “unclean” learn and inform as much as possible about Islam and be extremely rigorous in our dealings with Muslims and urge others to do the same. That these management staff are apparently charmed that Muslims are integrating themselves into their community (pool)– in a real and legally binding way– tells me that the latter are right on track while we remain virtually clueless.

    Whether publicly or privately funded, management staff in all service facilities are in need of being informed about the reality of sharia law and Islam in general.

    No “other groups”, certainly not religious ones, are seeking anything remotely similar to sharia compliance and all that it implies. Whether the center’s operators know it or not, they *are* giving special consideration beyond what other groups might get or demand. There is no other programatic effort like sharia that threatens, legally for now, to bully their way to political and social power. If they are extremely polite and amicable during this process it is irrelevant.

  6. So everybody else should just boycott this place. See how long they wil be able to keep their heads above the water.

  7. Perfect.

    A shielded pool.

    Finally the local swinger club has a place for their pool parties – or? Or the Satanic Society can arrange black pool messes.

    Wonder if the price will still be the same???

  8. Chalk up another victory for Islam in America and CAIR (who finacially supports folks like The Flying Imams, radical Muslim student groups in opur college campuses, and literally hundreds of these seemingly little steps toward sharia and Islamic accomodation in America, along with threatening companies and groups that don´t accomodate them with lawsuits and boycotts…shakedowns, essentially). The ignorant baffoons in Raleigh have no idea what they´ve done or who they were really dealing with. EVERYONE should write a letter to the aquatic center from the link above. (Be polite, but informative.)

  9. Sent to management:

    “Thanks for encouraging the lack of assimilation into America’s culture and encouraging separatist behavior.

    All I can do is hope that some other minority groups now come to you demanding equal pool time for their minority practices. How about reserving Saturday afternoons for baptisms?”

  10. Everyone else has said what i wanted to. Just wanted to but my comment in.
    Sharia Sucks

  11. Lotsa problems here… first…Christianity is, like Islam, a pervasive system of law and religion… for instance… I can only have one wife… a matter of law.. determined by religion. Here, I can’t buy liquor on Sunday.. Why not? Religion, that’s why.

    We can’t see how pervasive Christianity is, because we’re in it… like a fish has no concept of water…that sort of thing. I doubt I could be nude in that pool unless I rented it privately.. so if Muslimettes wanna be unseen by men.. let ‘em rent it. That seems fair enough.

    But the arguement that Islam is more pervasive in politics and social life than Christianity… that one needs to go… just because it’s kinda short sighted. Our whole system of justice and our social mores are Christian…

    … and it’s just as formalized as sharia.

    Here’s the thing.. any rights we reserve for ourselves… including the right to vote religion into law…

    … we have to give to other religions.

    As long as Christians are able to vote their theology into law (if they have the vote) then Muslims are gonna be able to vote their religion into law.

    Personally… I support a secular society… no laws from Christianity OR Islam…. but Christians surely are not gonna let go of their right to enforce their religion on me…

    … and accordingly, it’s gonna be hard to deny those rights to Muslims… as there is plenty of precedent for religious laws in America.

    If you are able to pass a law that Asians can’t BBQ a dog in a public park and serve it to people… then somewhere… Muslims are gonna be able to be enough of the vote that they can stop you from BBQing a pig… probably in Ohio first… by the looks of things…

    The counter arguement being “This is a Christian society”… which is my point exactly. There is a moral equivalency between Christianity and Islam… You guys have more in common than you have differences.

    That’s what I think.

  12. …appending my above comments…

    Voting isn’t the only way to enforce your religion on others… you can also do it through the courts…obviously.

  13. John F. –While this aquatic center may well be “private” in the technical sense of the word, it is heavily funded by tax deductible contributions from corporate sponsors, other non-profits, and it is also a tax exempt non profit org. itself. So in a very real sense, the public has a vested interest in how business is conducted here. And I doubt seriously that the Klan could reserve a spot for a Klan Heritage swim social at this place.

  14. Kafr–Take a close look at how Christians, Buddhists, and Jews are accomadated in countries run by Islamic majorities before you start pontificating about religion, culture, law, and politics in this country. What can be done in the courts of those countries?

    Everybody else can just close their eyes, click their heels together, and repeat after me: Diversity is strength!, Diversity is strength!, Diversity is strength! . . .

  15. I am all for it as long as they are prepared to cater to all religions, indeed the strict moral code for Muslim women may well be incorporated into my own beliefs. As a follower of the old Aztec religion it is high time I sacrifice a couple of virgins to Huizlopochtli and the pool is an ideal place, so much easier to clean up the mess.

  16. Hey ciccio, I’ve got some primo grade black obsidian that breaks off nice and sharp. You’ll need some if want to conduct your sacrifice according to traditional protocols!

  17. How about making the aquatic center “unclean” per Sharia law by holding some organized canine aquatic activities there?

  18. the appropriately named Quran Aquatic Center– hey maybe they’ll modify the name next to accommodate their new found clientele.

  19. JohnPershing,

    What does “how other religions are accomodated” have to do with my point?

    Religion is heavily accomodated in this country. We don’t see it because it’s “our” religion.

    We see it easily when it’s somebody else’s religion… “Jumpin Jihadis! Muslims rented a pool”

    If you just want to turn the US into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia… you’re on the right track. If you want America to be a secular society… immune to the imposition of other religions… stuff must change, as Christianity is imposed on non Christians here… under penalty of law.

    Would you support America becoming a secular nation? I doubt it.

    It’s gonna be religion VS religion…

    not religion VS freedom.

  20. You’re lucky to have such a proportionally small muslim population compared to us in Europe. You haven’t entered the stage of public rioting yet or the constant vandalism of both public and pesonal property. Daily robberies, assaults, gangrapes and murder, even in smaller towns. This is the next step after introducing gender segregation, veils, suing for discrimination, demands of sharia for muslims and so on. Have you heard about the special swimming suite for muslimas, the burkini? Don’t follow in the footsteps of Eurabia. Don’t import more muslim immigrants. Repatriate as many as possible of those you already got. We’re screwed but you still have a chance to avoid becoming part of their ummah.

  21. Kafr,
    There is a HUGE problem in your logic. What you fail to understand is under American Law – I CAN PROUDLY CLAIM TO BE AN “ATHEIST”. Any person can and in fact “are” proclaiming their religion. You can see Mosques, Temples, Synagogues aplenty – something you’re missing out on. It would help a lot if you could point out more Law-points that are taken from the Bible – except the monogamy clause.
    And if and when people get ‘civilized’ (for the lack of any other word) the concept of monogamy will also evolve. We are a evolving species – till now.
    Now, if you look at comparing between Islamic Society and a Christian one – you’d be doing the grave mistake of comparing a huge jet piloted by Mohammed Atta with another one piloted by a responsible A-A Pilot. If you think these two situations/societies are the same – my condolences are with you.
    There are further religions too – Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Judaism. How many articles have you read about a Buddhist monk shooting innocent Muslims or a violent Jain killing a bunch of innocent Muslims? Don’t you think it is very weird that only ONE particular religion gets so much blood?
    To frame your “VS” aptly it IS and WILL BE
    “ISLAM v/s present-day non-Islamic Society”
    And with the help of millions of people like yourself and me, we will ensure that ISLAM alone triumphs in the end (I add myself because, I too respect every religion and diversity, co-existence of different religions)
    And when you have the word “ISLAM” it automatically means ‘lack of freedom’ (because it literally means “SUBMISSION”). So, it is defintely not religion VS freedom it is SUBMISSION VS FREEDOM “or” Islam VS Freedom.

  22. To Robin_Shadowes
    I come from Denmark, and I agree with you.

    Dear americans, look what happens in Europe, piece by piece
    we loose freedom.

  23. This is sickening. It makes me want to puke. 10 more steps backward for America. allah akbar!

  24. People like Kafr here who try to equate Islam with other religions are obviously ignorant. Having lived and worked in several countries over the last twenty years; three of them Islamic, two of the Buddhists, India (Seikh and Hindi), as well as a couple Christian-majority countries including my own (the US), I´m here to tell you, Kafr, Islam and Muslims are a breed entirely their own with absolutely no similarities to the other three religions or people I mentioned. There will always be those. like you, who try to argue otherwise – mostly dimwited PC folks who live in some idealistic world of moral equivalency and suffering White Man´s guilt who go through life with blinders on listening to NPR and reading Noam Chomskey. There´s a REAL world out there, Kafr. Open your eyes, get off your ass, and get out. Or else listen to the Eurpeans on this board who have some experience with Islam and Muslim communitiies and their demands. Or read the Koran…that oughta straighten you up and force you to take notice. If nothing else, keep track of the news for a couple of years and keep a score board of the honor killings, forced marriages, hate preaching in houses of worship, female mutilations, equal rights and oppression, attacks on others´houses of worships, the killings of innocents, who cheers in the streets when those of other religions are slaughtered, terrorism in the name of which god, lawsuits and demands that succeed in which countries and those where certain religions have no rights whatsoever…and tally them up after a while and make a comparison of religions. A little world history might help you too.

  25. Kafr,

    Whatever your dreams of a diverse secular society, you have overlooked or dismissed some basic facts. Islam is not a religion in the normal sense: it is culture, law, spirituality, it is *everything* in the life of a Muslim. There is no equivalent to this condition in any other major religion. Surely you know this.

    Christian belief, the Bible, does not dictate how men shall live among themselves on a daily basis or dictate civic law, or instruct us in toilet etiquette in 70 specific points as sharia law instructs Muslims. “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, render unto God that which is God’s”. The very religion you deride is the source of the idea of a society that is at once secular and religious. The Founding Fathers knew this well and that is one reason we are blessed with a Constitution that is the envy of the free world.

    Followers of Islam cannot imagine separation of church and state. They are not about to give up their ways, even a little bit, to accommodate our way of life, unless they abandon Islam. Do you see the problem here?

    There is no part of the world where society is not built upon some religion. There is no pure secular state anywhere unless you count maybe North Korea. Or the Soviet Union or Communist China. Are these the sort of idealized societies you aspire to, that are so much better than one with unendurable vestiges of Christianity? If you value ideology over human life I guess that works out OK.

    “… and accordingly, it’s gonna be hard to deny those rights to Muslims… as there is plenty of precedent for religious laws in America.”

    Yes, followers of all religions have tremendous freedom in America, including the freedom to fight in the courts and legislature for what they want. Christians suffer regular setbacks in these areas, just as Muslims will in the future. Their race to implement sharia is our race to eliminate ignorance of Islam.

  26. Don,

    Very good comments. I agree completely.

    islam (I won’t capitalize anything related to islam) is ancient and wretched and has no place on this planet in the year 2009.

  27. To Don
    There is a great number of muslims in Denmark.
    Danish children in some public schools are forced
    to eat meals made by muslim rules.

    We have ghettoes where firefighters do not go without
    police protection.

  28. Oh, and another thing folks – don’t forget how University of Michigan installed foot baths in the schools restrooms because the muzzies requested it.

  29. Democracy or islam it is high time that people made their minds up because we ( or to be more accurate , they won’t let us have both) – decide.

  30. Honestly, it’s always people like that whom go around attempting to use the USA very own freedoms to undermine and take away the freedoms of OTHERS in USA away. So, that they can go around using the Koran claiming that they are More “superior” race (yep it uses the word superior about it) that Non-muslims whom are their “servants” (yep it uses the word servants about it; whom are to have no rights, no freedoms, no land, no homes, no possessions.

    Oh, but here’s one more—According to the Koran–the Non-muslims because they are NON-muslims are required to pay a tax anytime the muslims require it to keep the Non-muslims from being killed. Also, to keep the muslims living in the “lifestyle” that they want to be “accustomed” to live in at the expense of all NON-muslims in USA and in the world.

    For those whom in America have yet to realize it—the SHARIA LAW movement is a communist/facist/socialist/marxist movement—looking to create another holocaust–Only this “time” it won’t be just the jews it would be any Non-muslim in existence.

    In other words “same” hitler terroist horse, just another “brand” name label.

    How many people still don’t know whaaat? the ACLU says about USA –that American’s won’t ‘knowingly” accept Socialism; but “disguised” as “liberalism” Americans will accept every fragment of the Socialist agenda and one day wake up in a Socialist nation and “wonder how” it all happened to them.

    don’t believe it?? here’s the quote from one of the founders of ACLU Norman Thomas–Americans will never knowingly accept Socialism;but under liberalism Americans will accept every fragment and one day wake up in a Socialist nation and wonder how it all happened. unquote.

    What we need to wonder is how the DEMS can think they can count on American’s being as “stupid” as the ACLU and DEMS think Americans are so they can further their socialistic/communistic/marxist/facist agenda.

    How many people have yet to realize that the so-called “fairness doctrine” was deliberately mislabeled as such because it is SHARIA LAW and they hoped Americans would be too stupid to look or research further than the title before blindly voting on something. Hoping no one would notice it says–it’s punishible by death to anyone whom claims the rapes, murders and terrorist activities of muslim/islam/sharia law are “bad”.

    Whom was it who said—Tolerance only becomes wrong and EVIL when given and applied to criminals

  31. First of all you cannot secularize SHARIA LAW it is a communist/marxist/socialistic/facist movement.

    They are nothing like any other regligion around for the simple reason they’re religion is to annihialate anything that non-muslims.

    How many still have yet to know that as a result of not tying our
    exit to political progress PAKISTAN is under SHARIA LAW and the UN a
    few days ago passed to accept “disguising” under the term “fairness
    doctrine” sharia law. Hoping people would be too stupid to research
    to dig further than the title before voting on something; and that here in the
    US, also hoping no one would notice it means—it’s punishible by death
    to anyone whom claims the rapes, murders and criminal activities of
    muslim/islam/sharia law commit are “bad”. and that it is a “crime” to be any religion other than muslim.

    If the US allows itself to be bamboozled into accepting SHARIA LAW it
    would mean
    1. it would be “manditory” to set free from prison all those
    criminals and put them back out onto the street to continue to commit
    crimes. why?? Because the SHARIA LAW KORAN states that muslims are
    “superior” (yep it says superior about it) and therefore, exempt from
    prosecution for any and all crimes committed towards NON-muslims
    because NON-muslims have no rights, no freedoms, no money, no homes,
    no land and no possessions. (yep it’s stated in koran)

    2. It would be that “forced” female mutilation would become
    the norm in the US why?? because it is condoned by the SHARIA LAW.

    3. it would mean that NON-muslims would be required to pay a tax for
    the “mere” reason non-muslims are non-muslims. Therefore non-muslims
    would have to pay a “tax” to keep from being killed and the tax is
    due and payable anytime the muslims want it–in order to keep the
    muslims living in the lifestyle they want to be “accustomed” to
    living in at the expense of the Non-muslims of USA and any other
    country–this is their spread the wealth program. Incidentally,
    spread the wealth is a marxist/socialist/communist motto in history
    used by them and it also happens to be that SHARIA LAW is a
    facist,marxist,socialist,communistic based group.

    4. It would mean it is a crime punishble by death to be a religion
    different from muslim.

    As a result of not tying our exit to political progress??? Pakistan
    is now SHARIA LAW and UN has passed the SHARIA LAW and 24 hours later
    in PAKISTAN 30 christians were kicked out of their home and land and
    put out on street with nothing because they are non-muslims and the
    country is now SHARIA LAW.

    So, we might as well face the facts the UN doesn’t like us very much
    and it’s no longer safe for American’s to travelHowever, here is one “more” reason—If the USA were to ever allow
    itself to be bamboozled into accepting SHARIA LAW in the banking
    sectors:

    5. it would mean that it would mean that one day American’s will wake
    up to find they have no home, no land, no money, no possesions. Why???
    Because SHARIA LAW states that Muslims are “superior” (yep it uses
    word superior about it) therefore Mulsims are “entitle” to own all
    NON-muslims land, home, possesions and money and at a “timed deemed
    appropriate” by Muslims the Koran “commands” that the Muslims Jihad
    to forcibly take non-muslims land, home, money and possessions.
    why??? Because according to the Koran–the Koran is the “rule” of law
    (yep, it uses word rule about it) and muslims are to “rule” over
    “servants” (yep it uses word servant about it) whom are the
    NON-muslims. The Koran also states that any Nations treaties,
    charters, laws, amendments and constitution are NOT enforceable over
    the KORAN.

    The Koran also states that the religion is NOT separateable from the
    law therefore, everyone would have no constitution or charters, or
    treaties or laws to protect their Nation from being overrun by SHARIA
    LAW. The American Center for Law and Justice did a whole write up on
    this.

    The ACLU is one of “the” most anti-American/freedom groups active in
    our Nation and schools today.

    Want to know what one of the founders of the ACLU said about what
    they think about Americans???—American’s would never “knowingly”
    vote for Socialism, however, “disguising” it under the term
    “liberalism” American’s would accept every fragment and one day wake
    up in a Socialist nation and “wonder how” it could have all happened
    to them.

    This is Norman Thomas brand of vocalization towards the American
    Public.

    Don’t believe it?? here’s the quote from Norman Thomas quote
    American’s will never knowingly accept Socialism, but under
    liberalism Americans will accept every fragment and one day wake up
    in a Socialist nation and wonder how it all happened. Unquote.

    Sooo, what we need to wonder is how the DEMS can think they can
    continue to count on American’s being as “stupid” as the DEMS and
    ACLU think American’s are so they can further their
    socialistic/communistic/marxist/facist agenda.

    whom was the great orator whom said–Tolerance becomes wrong and EVIL
    when given and applied to criminals.

    whom was it whom said–All that is needed for tyranny to reign is for
    good men to do nothing.

    whom was it whom said–those whom don’t learn from history are doomed
    to repeat history.

    If this is the first time you are hearing about all this well take
    heart. Do ‘you” want to sit idly by and allowing our families to be
    put at risk; on the “off chance’ that someone else will do the work
    of talking to friends neighbors towards all things “political”.

    Prior to elections we constantly had to complain to the REPUBLICANS
    because no one would let us post because we don’t post Pro Obama, no
    one wanted to know the truth.

    So, we had to file with the Justice Dept because to the present the
    problem persists.

    This is still a BY THE PEOPLE, OF THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE
    government and we need as a nation to LEGALLY and LEGISLATIVELY not
    leave WASH DC alone, until everyone of our freedoms are iron-clad
    protected and make sure we make it clear WE THE PEOPLE will have
    LONG, LONG memories should even ‘ONE’ legislator in WASH DC wish to
    “shirk” their responsibility in protecting our flag, our allegience,
    and our seal and our freedoms. Just say “no” to sharia law in all
    forms. pure and simple.

  32. Anyone whom would allow themselves to be ‘bamboozled” by sharia law doesn’t have a clue as to what they are voting for.

    Sharia law says that non-muslims are “servants” (yes, they use the word servant about it) whom are to have NO home, NO money, No land, No possessions and no rights and can be eliminated at whim with no one prosecuting them because under SHARIA LAW Muslims are exempt from prosecution for crimes committed to Non-muslims.

    oh but we will give you one more —under SHARIA law women are routinely abused and it is common for forced gen. mutilation to be done to women. it would become common to the USA if sharia law becomes into effect in USA.

    Why anyone would want to put their loved ones or themselves at “risk” to vote for SHARIA law is simply someone whom hasn’t checked on what they are voting for.

  33. A question for Kafr: If you had to pick from a list of countries to live in, and had on that list any South American country (Catholic/Christian), any Southeast Asia country (Buddhist), India (Hindis, Sikhs mostly), Israel (Jewish), China or Cuba or or Russia, or ANY Islamic country practicing sharia law, which one would be the LAST on your list?

  34. Muslims should go back and sit in the sand in their own countries if they don’t want to follow the rules and laws of the greatest nation in the world, the USA!

    GOD, not allah the moon god, bless America!

  35. The women need privacy to hide the scars and bruises that are left by their loving peaceful mahubbies. The truth is indeed painful to look at.

  36. I am all for doggy day at the pool.
    ” Come here you cute little puppies ”
    jump in the pool and dirty the water
    for the pure and peaceful can not
    go where once dogs were.

    No dogs allowed, go get PETA involve
    pit two wacko groups against each other.

    Problem solved

  37. Interesting responses…

    Most of what I see seems to be a misunderstanding of my point. When I say “This country accomodates religion” I am met by “But this country accomodates religion”…. as though it were a counterpoint.

    Well, actually MOST of what I see is ad hominem suggestions that I’m too stupid to be thinking about these subjects…. but in second place is a bit of confusion about what I’m saying.

    Perhaps someone could bother to grasp the subtleties of my point.. just as an exercise in rhetoric and abstract thinking.

    Maybe I can help a bit. Christianity imposes itself on people by law, even here in the United States.

    This creates what they call “precedent” meaning that our country has a long history of allowing religions to put their theology into law, as long as they have the votes to do it.

    Is that the way we want to go?

    If an enclave of Muslims are a local majority, and they pass a city ordinance that no one may sell food during Ramadan daylight hours…

    Citing “Sunday laws” as precedent…

    Do we expect that law to stand?

    Suppose you were the judge that handles a review of this law. The Imam says that for years in our fictional polity, no one can sell liquor on Sunday out of respect for Christianity, and so his laws he’s just passed with the help of Muslim voters say no one can sell any liquor period… and no one can sell food during Ramadan daylight hours.

    How could you justify striking down the Muslim law without striking down the Christian laws? If you say “But this is a Christian country” then you’re headed in the direction of a theocracy. You know… rule by religion.

    If a certain people have a majority vote in a country, a state, a county or a township… may they then vote their religion into law for that area?

    Does it matter which religion they are? Or does it just matter that religion doctrine is being forced onto nonbelievers?

    This discussion goes to the very heart of “creeping sharia”, and this is how sharia will come to America… legally… by the vote… based on centuries of precedent.

    No doubt it’s the stupid people such as myself who might be concerned about such a trend… and surely my expressed preference for a secular society is based on naive idealism…

    But… maybe I have an earnest question, however rhetorical it might be… “Would you Christians give up your political power to impose your religion on nonbelievers as a defense against sharia”?

    Is there a way reasonable people can simply pick and choose which religions can use the mechanisms of democracy to impose their theologies on nonbelievers?

    Or isn’t it a situation where “if one religion can do it, then we have to allow all religions to do it”.

    Good luck reading and grasping.

    Thanks for your interest in my musings.

  38. Kafr,

    You are obviously intelligent and aritculate. I appreciate it that you take the time to write your views.

    However, Christians don’t go to other countries and try to change their zoning laws and school menus and demand prayer time in OUR public schools and protest political cartoons and pull the race card everytime they don’t get their way. Most Christians respect the customs and culture of the country they visit and except it. Muslims do not give a shit about America except for a place to come to to exploit and divide and conquer – yes, by sharia. If it is a choice between islam and America, they would choose islam in a heartbeat and die defending it. Wouldn’t they sir?

    I’m sorry, your arguments may be intellectually correct, but they do not reflect the real world. muslims only care about islam and other muslims. Period. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

    I detest islam and don’t want it here.

  39. Thanks Bob.. I appreciate your effort.

    Regardless, in this country, Christians regularly vote their religion into law, which is the door through which Sharia can creep.

    Would Christians be willing to give up their right to impose their religion on America as a way of heading off things like Sharia?

    Would you personally mind if all Sunday laws were declared unconstitutional so that Muslims can’t outlaw selling food during Ramadan?

    That’s my point… I dunno if you caught that… assuring me that Chritianity is superior to Islam is not necessary. Heck… a toothache is superior to Islam.

    The laws of America can be altered so that Sharia cannot get a foothold here… but it would probably have the side effect of limiting any religion’s ability to impose religious laws.

    Do you figure Christians would give up their right to legislate their religion?

  40. The laws of America DO NOT need fundemental reforms to prevent Sharia law from gaining a foothold in this country. With the exception of small cadre of Louis Farrakan Nation of Islam prison converts, virtually all Islamic presence in this county is directly attibutable to misguided(but changeable) immigration policies. There is absolutely NOTHING fundementally unconstitutional about denying admission to foreign practitioners of Islam to this country (or foreign practioners of anything deemed to be incompatible with our Nation’s best interest). All it takes is political willpower.

    Nobody here has made the case for even allowing Muslims in this country. How do we, as established residents and citzens benefit from the admission of Muslims to this country? Do we even have a right to ask ourselves these kinds of questions? Some people assert that that right doesn’t exist. Are you one of those people Kafr?

  41. Kafr,

    You raise some good questions that may well end up being answered in a courtroom well before they are answered in a blog’s comments.

    One fact that you set aside consistently is that Islam is *not* a religion in the sense that it is comparable to other mainline religions, even leaving aside its overt problems. It is also a political system and political parties can be outlawed if they are deemed to be seditious to the State. Just as there was a synergy between the military and spiritual existence of the people of Imperial Japan, one aspect can be sorted from the other and dealt with as necessary.

    So will Islam and sharia law split us apart legally and socially, or will the implements of our Constitution split Islam apart?

    Your argumentation insists that we generally regard Islam as being on an equal footing with any other religion, Christianity in particular, and this may well not stand. Unique problems demand unique solutions. Separationism is the best one I have seen so far, and the most humanitarian.

  42. Kafr,

    You write: “….in this country, Christians regularly vote their religion into law,…”

    This is false. Can you give me an example?

    That notwithstanding, in effect, if it were true, you are saying that muslims have a right to “vote” sharia into law the same as Christians do with Christianity. This illustrates the fact that muslims expect to exploit the American system to further their own agenda. Christians do not do that in countries that are not Christian, but muslims do. Why? If a Christian were to even think about doing that in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Afghanistan, they would be deported immediately. Or something much worse.

    It is because the koran teaches muslims that islam and allah are the only
    religion and all others are forbidden and evil. And that muslims should convert and/or dominate the infidels until they succumb.

    The United States was founded on Chrisitianity. But, unlike muslim countries, we try to regulate church and state to be separate. islam is not a religion – it is a way of life, a totalitarian way of life, and does not conform to Christian customs and principles. muslims do not like or tolerate Christians or anyone but other muslims. Do you deny that Kafr?

    muslims are arrogant and demanding and cannot accept American laws and customs. Why are muslims not content to worship quietly as they choose and leave everyone else alone?

  43. It’s a mistake if in the interest of diversity we grant Islam the same status as other ways of life. Islam is a barbaric, tribal, dark ages system, there is no equating that to the peaceable religions like Buddhists, Christians etc. Although the Catholic church used to be quite violent, it has the benefit of the enlightenment, Islam has not and because it is supposedly the final word of God can not. Read the Koran, learn about Islam, it is bad news. As an Atheist I can honestly say that Islam of all the religions ,is the worst enemy of humanity by far.

  44. Sorry Bob Jones but you are dead wrong about the U.S. being founded on Christianity. This is a SECULAR country. It was not founded on any religion ,no matter how bad the Christians want it to be so. This is the United States of America, not the U.S. of Jesus.

  45. John,

    I agree with you completely. Your comments are well taken.

    You should know, I too am an atheist. But I will still defend Christianity when islam is involved. When I wrote that the U.S. was “founded on Christianity” I just meant that Christians were the only religion involved in the original settlement and colonization, and who have prevailed in maintaining the majority since that time. And yes, who have indeed kept this country secular. I also just wanted to point out that in the 21st Century, Christians do not plunder and behead people and blow up women and children. Or, other than missionaries, go to other countries and try to install their belief system and laws.

    Passive muslims say that, “not all muslims are that way,” but they are just as bad for being submissve and tacitly accepting it. By not speaking out, they are just as significant in spreading islam’s insidious, black shadow. In addition, most of them would die defending islam, not this country. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t be a true muslim.

    islam is wretched and, yes, barbaric. This is just the hard reality of the truth. Everywhere islam goes, death and destruction follow. Period. Unless we in this country and other secular countries come to grips and take this scourge to task, we are in deep pucky.

  46. Here ya go folks. Just read this on an internet site called “Mail On-line.” It refers to Britian, and what I fear is happening here.

    “Under multiculturalism, ethnic minority groups are encouraged to develop their own identity while critics say values associated with white groups are dismissed as racist.”

    Any questions boys and girls?

  47. Bob Asks, “Can you give me an example?”

    Yes, of course I can repeat the examples I’ve given… the most innocuous being Sunday laws.. I cannot buy liquor on Sunday here in Stevens County, Washington State… simply because local Christians have the majority vote.

    Should Muslims become a local majority here, I would expect them to have the power to vote down selling food during the daylight hours of Ramadan.

    There are a plethora of other examples, but I’ve used “Sunday Laws” because they are relatively uncontroversial, and I don’t think the arguement of “but it’s a social issue” would apply.

    Using Sunday laws keeps it simpler… a true commodity hereabouts.

  48. Kafr,

    Okay, I see what you mean. But those are state laws and local county laws. They are not “federal” laws. There’s a huge difference. And most of them are not mandated out of religious doctrine.

    But I suppose you can still try and petition to change them or to have your own local regulations. Muslims already have in places like Dearbornistan here in Michigan. But why would you want to do that? You are still implying you want to change our laws and customs. I suppose you would want change laws to ban taking dogs and liquor in taxi cabs and forbid the sale of pork anywhere. You want to change things to be your (islam’s) own way and reject our ways until sharia dominates American society.

    You still haven’t answered my other question – Why are muslims not content to worship quietly as they choose and leave everyone else alone?

  49. Yes Bob, the Sunday laws are local laws passed by local majorities. That is how Sharia can creep. This has been my experience here, I say “Local majorities can pass religious laws in this country” and you come back with “but those are local and state laws, not federal”, as though you weren’t agreeing with me.

    It’s rather frustrating. Please read on.

    There are Federal laws that are Christian in origin, but this discussion is already too complicated for bringing in other considerations.

    Why, I wonder, would you think I would support bans on taking dogs and liquor in taxis? I seem to be speaking against laws based on religion, don’t I?

    Yes, actually, I AM speaking out against legislating religious doctrine into law. Isn’t that clear? I have not written any statement that a reasonable person could interpret as supporting Sharia.

    So you want me to answer your question, “Why are muslims not content to worship quietly as they choose and leave everyone else alone?”

    I will answer that… even though it seems irrelevant and off topic from my concerns and interests here…

    Mohammedists are adjured to spread their religion by their scriptures. That’s why they do it. That’s why they can’t just allow others to have their own ways. Their religion commands them. Isn’t that your understanding of why they can’t leave others alone?

    Why that comes up is as mysterious as why you think I would support Sharia in this country. ( “I suppose you would want change laws to ban taking dogs and liquor in taxi cabs and forbid the sale of pork anywhere”)

    So here I am, trying to make a comment about how Sharia will creep into American society, through the precedent of other religions having the right to vote their religion into law.. and I’m getting back nonsequitur statements and unrelated questions.

    I am not a Mohammedist, a Muslim, whatever you want to call them… I think Mohammed was a Jim Jones type of monster, and in my opinion, it is unfortunate that people with messianic complexes get to be messiahs.

    So… I dunno, Bob… I think you’re trying to engage me in conversation, I appreciate your attention and effort, but you seem to have trouble understanding me.

    I am an American, not an atheist, not a Mohammedist… or Muslim… I do not like the idea that a group can get a local majority and then use it to pass their religion into law.

    I am asking if the Christian community will give up their power to vote up religious laws as a defense against other religions coming in and using the legal precedent to vote in laws concerning Ramadan. (for instance)

    I am completely unable to communicate that idea on this board. No one has shown the slightest understanding of my (rather well and often expressed) concerns.

    It is as though I am speaking gibberish.

    Thanks for the experience.

  50. Kafr, if you were my best friend – which a person like you never would be – I’m certain I could not count on you to watch my back or help me get through a dark ally in a bad section of town. You would rationalize that I shouldn’t have been there to begin with and tell me I’m on my own. You seem like that kind of guy. And if I were a soldier, you’re the last guy I’d want in my unit.

  51. Kafr,

    I am sorry if I don’t understand your comments. By your responses, you appeared to support islam and sharia. What am I missing? I aplogize if I am not understanding.

    By your username and comments, I also was under the impression you were muslim. Again I apologize for being judgemental.

    I was referring to the cases in Minneapolis and New York City where muslim taxi drivers refused to pick up people with dogs and/or had alcoholic beverages because it is against islamic customs – the koran.
    This is/was an outrage. Tell me another “religion” that would forbid this?
    musilims can do what they want in their own countries, but not here.

    Maybe a lot of our exchange has been unnecessary. All a person has to do is be aware of their living environment, pay attention to events in Europe and Britian, and look at the historical record to understand why islam is repelling and irrational.

    I’m sure you are a good person. I do not mean anything personal. It is islam I am talking about.

  52. There can be no peace with Islam. American ideals and Muslim ideas are not compatible. The fact is, it’s them or us. The only real answer is War on Islam.

    Islam is the enemy of the world.

  53. Well…

    There is not a single line in anything I’ve written that a reasonable person could feasibly interpret as supporting Sharia or worshipping Mohammed. It just isn’t there.

    Islam is a relatively new challenge for us. We want to be a free society where people are able to express themselves in religion and politics, but Islam sees tolerance as weakness, and any reading of Islam has to include Mo’s instructions to spread Islam by any means necessary, up to and including, killing the kafir. (infidels)

    Even if I were a Muslim supporting Sharia, which I’m not, it doesn’t do any good to say “You are a Muslim therefore your ideas are tainted”.

    You are stuck having to read the ideas someone presents, and then dealing with the ideas, if you actually want public discourse here.

    The ideas I’ve presented should be very simple to understand and comment about… but so far, all I’ve received for my trouble has been erroneous assumptions about my motives… and a wonderful little discourse about how a total stranger does not want me to be his trusted friend.

    Great.

    My ideas have gone unaddressed, and, I must assume, unread.

    I opine that our freedom is not sufficiently protected. Our society is set up in such a way that people are free to bring their religion in, and vote it into law.

    That alarms me. I worry that people don’t understand how pervasive religion is in our culture, and how those Mohammedist guys can use that to establish sharia here.

    My comments should be right in line with the theme of this place.

    I believe that the clearer we are, the more discriminating and analytical we are, the smarter we are, the better we will be able to come to grips with this relatively new set of problems (Sharia).

    To that end, I point out that Christianity too, is more than a religion. It is also a political and social system that is nearly invisible to people like myself, who are culturally immersed in it.

    I point out that, according to the way we do things here, Mohemmedists are free to bring their religion here, and vote it into law… and I am totally freaked out by that. I feel as though we need more protection against people who want to live as though it’s 7th century Arabia forever.

    So… what is the solution? Public discourse can be very useful. Forums like this collect differing ideas and opinions and can help our society respond to challenges such as Mohammedism.

    Forum administrators are potentially a new force in our culture. The administrator here works to define the conflict between freedom and Mohammedism.

    But in order to be effective, the administration here will have to read the posts that come in, and make some sort of rudimentary effort to understand what is being said.

    You apologize to me for misunderstanding me in the very same sentence that you tell me that you thought I was Muslim because of my comments.

    >sigh<

    It wasn’t my comments. My comments would get me arrested in Saudi Arabia, and probably killed in Pakistan.

    I suggest to you that the reason you assumed I was writing in support of Sharia is that I began with a critique of our society, and that you simply have turned me off, and that to this moment, you have not understood my reasons for writing, or a point I have made.

    Well… now I have to think about if I’m actually gonna submit this… You have a perfect right not to understand me if that’s what you want…

    I just can’t get away from the idea that you are actually trying to engage me, and that you’re trying to be of service to the maintenance of American freedom, which we both see to be threatened by people who like to dance around that rock in the Kaaba…. and kill people who draw cartoons of Mo.

    With that in mind, perhaps our conversation here might help elevate the level of conversation…. so here it is… criticism and support…

    Not that you’re gonna bother to understand it.. I have to just write for myself and not get all bunched up if folks want to dismiss me and my points.

    Thanks for your hospitality. I’m gone.

  54. Kafr, you say that Christianity is more than a religion and is a political and social system. Besides Vatican City, the smallest nation on Earth, can you name a “Christian” country? Not a Christian-majority country, but one that uses Christianity to drive their policies. We have countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and even so-called “moderate” countries like Kuwait and Barhain that are full on Islamic by law, word, and deed. We, the US, separate church and state, as does every Christian majority country, which is why we don’t begin or enter wars based on religion, nor d Christian-majority countries raise the issue of religion in the UN, in their own state politics, or any other body. Not so with Islamic countries, who really do use religion as a political system. Again, i think you’re the kind of guy who when having a 38 Snubnose pointed at his head would be trying to rationlize why murderer is using a 38 Snubnose; what family problems did the poor soul have to bring him to this point; Is it poverty that’s the problem here? I geuss that depends on what the meaning of “is” is.

  55. All,

    Is it just me, or did anyone else get the feeling that Kafr was sympathizing with islam?

    David,

    I agree – Kafr is trying to intellectualize islam. Hmmm…that’s a definite oxymoron – intellectualize islam? ya right.

    All,

    There is nothing to intellectualize about islam. islam is very straight forward and direct in it’s purpose – to dominate the world by any means necessary and smite the infidels and subdue them. But Robert Spencer puts it this way:

    “….I offer evidence for the proposition that terror attacks involving bombings and shootings are not the sum total of terrorist aspirations, but are just one component of a larger initiative that is also advancing by means of non-violent initiatives. Those non-violent initiatives, which are often presented to the public as something quite different from what they actually are, are what I mean by “stealth jihad.” The goal of these initiatives is the imposition of Islamic law, Sharia, over the world – over their fellow Muslims and non-Muslims alike. It aims at nothing less than the transformation of American society and the imposition of Islamic law here, subjugating women and non-Muslims to the status of legal inferiors.”

  56. David @ 1:37 gives a good summary of how Islam and Christianity are so very different in socio-political terms, both in theory and in practice. These facts bear directly and uniquely on how Islam may or may not advance in the U.S. I have made similar arguments (above) and even quoted, or paraphrased, the Bible with respect to Christianity’s functioning in our national polity.

    Yet Kafr seems unable to grasp what has been said here to address his concerns and only bemoans the apparent fact that no one pays proper attention to what he is saying. He consistently equates Christianity with Islam as if they were equal, or as if they might be treated equally by our laws indefinitely, but this is false and he has been rebutted on this critical point more than once on this page without responding.

    Kafr– you cannot fairly complain of being ignored or obtusely misunderstood when you yourself have ignored various cogent points that several others have made in response to your entreaty.

  57. To Kafr,
    The fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that violence for the sake of conversion is supported by Islam not Christianity. While it is true that the church has lost its way and resorted to violence in ages past, nowhere in the bible does my Lord Jesus Christ encourage violence except to defend one’s own life or to defend the lives of others. Christianity by its nature is a personal choice and relationship with God. In contrast Islam has a few choice things to say about infidels most especially Jews. The next few lines are direct quotes from their profit Mohammad who, if you study your ancient history, was nothing more than a manipulator who had ‘revelations’ from allah whenever it suited his circumstances. Here are quotes that any fundamental muslim will be well versed in.What follows are three translations of an excerpt from the fifth Sur verses 59-66 in the Koran :005.059
    YUSUFALI: Say: “O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?”
    PICKTHAL: Say: O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers?
    SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

    005.060
    YUSUFALI: Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!”
    PICKTHAL: Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
    SHAKIR: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

    005.061
    YUSUFALI: When they come to thee, they say: “We believe”: but in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.
    PICKTHAL: When they come unto you (Muslims), they say: We believe; but they came in unbelief and they went out in the same; and Allah knoweth best what they were hiding.
    SHAKIR: And when they come to you, they say: We believe; and indeed they come in with unbelief and indeed they go forth with it; and Allah knows best what they concealed.

    005.062
    YUSUFALI: Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and rancour, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.
    PICKTHAL: And thou seest many of them vying one with another in sin and transgression and their devouring of illicit gain. Verily evil is what they do.
    SHAKIR: And you will see many of them striving with one another to hasten in sin and exceeding the limits, and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired; certainly evil is that which they do.

    005.063
    YUSUFALI: Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.
    PICKTHAL: Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evil-speaking and their devouring of illicit gain? Verily evil is their handiwork.
    SHAKIR: Why do not the learned men and the doctors of law prohibit them from their speaking of what is sinful and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired? Certainly evil is that which they work.

    005.064
    YUSUFALI: The Jews say: “Allah’s hand is tied up.” Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
    PICKTHAL: The Jews say: Allah’s hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them, and We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.
    SHAKIR: And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

    005.065
    YUSUFALI: If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.
    PICKTHAL: If only the People of the Scripture would believe and ward off (evil), surely We should remit their sins from them and surely We should bring them into Gardens of Delight.
    SHAKIR: And if the followers of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss

    005.066
    YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
    PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
    SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
    REMEMBER you spoke correctly that religious voting is a reality. It cannot be escaped even an atheistic view requires a measure of faith(belief in one’s world view). This considered, I would hope that you would choose to be ruled by a majority that promotes tolerance and not the hate mongering of Islam. One final note, Christians are slaughtered every year by Muslims, Hindis, and Sikhs but in all the world WE the Christians have the most raw military power and we tolerate this because our Lord commanded us to. Do you think if the positions were turned that the muslims or any other group would?
    Furthermore, the US was meant to be a Christian nation and was founded as such. Check your US history and note that the Congress had presiding chaplains AKA pastors and priests that would invoke prayer before sessions. They weren’t praying to allah or bhudda or any other God except Jehova Yahweh Elohim Adonia Jesus Holy Spirit AKA the Judao-Christian Trinity or God-Head. Amen

  58. [...] to be separate (and unequal). For example, the separate Muslim only swimming hours at Harvard, in North Carolina, as well as in Oregon where Muslim women demanded separate swim times and requested female [...]

  59. [...] to be separate (and unequal). For example, the separate Muslim only swimming hours at Harvard, in North Carolina, as well as in Oregon where Muslim women demanded separate swim times and requested female [...]

  60. lol ted

  61. [...] to accomodate their medieval religion/customs with footbaths, special toilets they can squat on,separate swimming/pool times for boys/men and girls/women, halal meals, and prayer roomsthat are quickly turned into mosques thus no other faith can use it [...]

  62. to JohnPerching – check your facts: there are thousands of religious and non-religious orgs that are tax exempt, non-profit orgs that corporations can make tax deductible contributions. Move on to another other argument; this one’s pointless.
    n
    to “duh & peterk” (and others w/such igorant thoughts) – what’s the opinions of some women here? b/c y and since when does men’s ability to ogle equate to assimilation?

    if any other group (religious or not) made this request, which there be such degree of objections? Come on People, move beyond arguing against any religious simply for the sake of arguing. Have some basis for your comments or don’t comment at all.

  63. [...] North Carolina aquatic center says yes to sharia law – makes public pool private for Muslim women [...]

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